Astronaut Hayley shares her brave adventure

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Astronaut, Haley, shares her brave adventure, this week on Planetary Radio. I'm Sarah Al-Ahmed of The Planetary Society, with more of the human adventure across our solar system and beyond. From IV drips to rocket ships, Hayley Arceneaux has been on a journey. She joins us today to talk about her memoir, Wild Ride, and her newly released kids' book, Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure, both of which tell the stories of her experiences with childhood cancer and how that set the stage for her journey to space aboard SpaceX's Inspiration4 mission. Then our chief scientist, Bruce Betts, joins me for an exploration of the g-forces experienced during astronaut training in What's Up. If you love Planetary Radio and want to stay informed about the latest space discoveries, make sure you hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcasting platform. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode filled with new and awe-inspiring ways to know the cosmos and our place within it. 

Hayley Arceneaux is someone that I've wanted to speak with for years, both because the Inspiration4 mission did what it meant to do. It inspired me, but also because I really value anyone who can go through really difficult things in life and come out the other end holding on to their hope. Hayley Arceneaux is the author of Wild Ride: A Memoir of I.V. Drips and Rocket Ships, and her new kid's book, Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure, which was released on February 18th, 2025. 

Haley is a physician assistant at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. St. Jude specializes in treating some of the most challenging cases of childhood cancer and other life-threatening diseases. Working at St. Jude has been Haley's dream since she was 10 years old. After receiving lifesaving treatment for pediatric bone cancer at St. Jude as a child, Haley committed her life to achieving her dream. Neither grueling math homework nor painful prosthetic limb replacement could stop her. She wanted to work at St. Jude to help others that had going through the hardships that she had faced as a child, and after a lot of work, she achieved her goal. 

Little did she know that her triumph would lead her to become the first pediatric cancer survivor and the first person with a prosthetic body part in space. On September 15th, 2021, Haley blasted off on SpaceX's Inspiration4 mission, a journey that was chronicled in the Netflix docuseries, Countdown: Inspiration4 Mission to Space. Inspiration4 was the first all-civilian crewed space mission. Every person selected for that trip was chosen to represent an ideal. Jared Isaacman, who funded the mission, represented the spirit of leadership. Jared also commanded the recent Polaris Dawn mission and is currently the presumptive nominee for NASA administrator. 

Chris Sembroski, a data engineer, represented generosity on the trip. He entered the contest to go to space by donating to St. Jude and ultimately didn't win, but was pleasantly surprised when a college friend who had won gave him his ticket to space. Dr. Sian Proctor, who's a geoscientist and artist, joined the crew as a representation of prosperity. During the mission, Sian became the first black woman to pilot a spacecraft. And then there's Hayley Arceneaux, our guest. She was chosen to embody hope. Her unique story made her the perfect choice for this mission, but getting there would prove to be one of the most challenging experiences of her life, which is really saying something considering everything she's survived so far. Together, their crew ventured to space for almost three days and raised over $200 million for St. Jude's Children's Cancer Research. 

Haley shares her experiences in an adult-friendly manner in her memoir, Wild Ride, but her new kid's book, Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure, shares one of the most critical lessons that Haley gleaned from her trials and triumphs, what it means to be brave. Hi Haley. Welcome to Planetary Radio.

Hayley Arceneaux: Hello, it's good to be here.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I have been wanting to talk to you for literally years. I followed your Inspiration4 journey so closely and it is so wonderful to meet you.

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, thank you for saying that and for all the support through Inspiration4. I hope that a lot of people, as they saw Inspiration4, saw themselves in it, and I hope that's why a lot of people wanted to follow along on our journey.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's why I was following along. This is a personal thing that I don't think I've ever shared on this show before, but my partner is a pediatric cancer survivor.

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, wow.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: He survived leukemia as a kid.

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:04:32].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: So hearing your story, and your experiences, and knowing that you took all of that and then decided to work with kids with leukemia, I was a crying mess the whole time I was watching that documentary.

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, my goodness. Well, I would already love your partner. He sounds like he's a fighter. And that was one thing that was whenever I was asked to go to space, one thing I was most proud of was thinking about people going through cancer treatment, and survivors of cancer thinking that now they can go to space and that truly the sky is not the limit for them.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And it was a wonderful opportunity, once more, to donate and help bolster St. Jude and their mission. I know that this mission ended up crowdfunding so much money for St. Jude. How did that turn out?

Hayley Arceneaux: We raised about $250 million for St. Jude and for cancer research. And something a lot of people might not know about St. Jude is that we treat patients and their families for free. Families never receive a bill for their treatment, for their housing, for their transportation. And so when I had cancer and I was treated at St. Jude, we think that my treatment probably cost in the millions of dollars, but we'll never know because we never got a bill. And so by doing a big fundraiser, a unique fundraiser like Inspiration4, we're able to give so many families that opportunity for treatment, for some of the best treatment in the world at no cost.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That makes such a big difference. And for anybody who's listening, once you're done listening to this interview, you can go to the page for Planetary Radio for this episode and I'll include a link to donation for St. Jude, if you want to contribute. The way that this organization has changed your life and the lives of so many others is so beautiful, and knowing that ultimately that culminated in your opportunity to go to space is just so far beyond what I expected out of this journey for you. It's so beautiful.

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely. I never could have expected it either, truly, and just to have had this opportunity for something so beautiful to have come from such a difficult time, and then to be able to have used my story and then my space experience to help other kids with cancer, it just feels very full circle.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It does, and you lay it out so beautifully in this books. We'll talk a little bit about both of your books today, Wild Ride, which is your memoir, and Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure, which is your newly released kids' book. But let's start with your kids' book because that's where I started. I did this backwards.

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, really?

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I started by reading your kids' book first because I wanted to take a fresh look at what story you were trying to tell these kids, without any more clouding. Obviously, I'd already seen the Inspiration4 docuseries, but as I was reading through this book, I noted what you said and what you didn't say, and what you told through the images, and what story you were trying to impart to these kids. And I think it's a really beautiful flipping of this common trope where kids say, "I want to grow up to be an astronaut." But what this book actually says is, "If I'm brave enough to overcome childhood illness or a really difficult time in childhood, then you can use this bravery to do anything, including going to space."

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:07:49].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And I thought that was a really beautiful reframing.

Hayley Arceneaux: I'm so glad that you captured that because that's exactly what I was going for. And just knowing that kids have to go through situations where they need to be brave, and some of the examples I gave in the beginning of the book were that the character had to learn how to be brave at school and in everyday life. And then for this character in particular, she gets sick and I don't use the word cancer, but based on some of the illustrations, I tried to portray the journey that if parents wanted to talk about it with their kids, they could. And it could be used maybe if a kid has a family member or a friend with cancer to show that someone can go through this and be okay. But just the theme of bravery, because I know that's something that we all face, it was what we faced from a young age. And for me, that was one of my biggest takeaways from Inspiration4, and so I'm just thrilled to be able to share that message with kids.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: You've had such a wealth of life experiences, so it makes sense that you would write a memoir for adults who want to follow along on that journey. But what was it that happened in your life after you went to space that told you, "I should make a kid's book out of this."?

Hayley Arceneaux: It was during training and I was really touched by people reaching out during that time and saying that my story inspired them. And of course I was very touched by visiting with patients with cancer, and some of them were my own patients, and them saying that they wanted to be an astronaut now. And this one little girl, I remember she said, "I can't wait to be an astronaut." There was no if, it was, I... And the deeper meaning to her statement was, I'm going to make it through my cancer and I can do anything I want to do. And so those were the moments that I thought, "I have been so fortunate to have these life experiences. I really should share my journey and what I've learned." And so that was when the idea for a kids' book came along, and this has been about three and a half years in the making, so I'm really excited that it's out now.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: There are some really interesting differences between your actual journey to space and the journey that you tell in this book. How did you make the decisions on what to keep realistic and what to make more fanciful or inventive?

Hayley Arceneaux: I was thinking about what would entertain kids and also, because in the last three years I've spoken to so many different schools and groups of kids, and I went with what were the questions I'm asked the most? And I always get asked about, what did you eat in space? Did you see any planets? Did you see aliens? And so I took the things that I found kids to be the most interested in and I tried to include them in the book. And so those were some of the more fictional aspects, but then I also thought about what I wanted them to take away from it, and I wanted them to be proud of their everyday bravery. I wanted them to feel empowered to dream big, and to believe in themselves and in their big dreams. And so that's the story I tried to tell and I didn't want it to be preachy at all. I just hope that as the kids read about character, astronaut Haley, that they can see themselves in her.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: But you've included so much of yourself in this book, not just in the actual storytelling, but I mentioned this earlier, in the art that actually goes into this. I found myself as I was reading early on in the pages, seeing this image of you and your dad doing taekwondo and thinking, "I wonder if she actually really did that." And then I went and read your book, and I found that one detail so much more heart-wrenching and so beautiful in retrospect.

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, I appreciate that a lot. I'm grateful that I had a little bit of freedom to put bits and pieces of myself in the book, and I think that's what helped me fall in love with the book writing process and this whole experience even more, was that I could tell real life bits of my story. But there is one picture in the book that you mentioned of me and my dad doing taekwondo together and it was taken, the illustrator, Lucie Bee, she made that picture from a photo that I have with my dad as we were getting our black belts together. And so for me, whenever I am reading the children's book and I see that scene, that's always the part that just makes my heart feel very warm.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It's just a absolutely adorable what you've done with this book and-

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:12:10].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: ... if anybody goes back... I encourage anyone who's trying to get this book for their child to consider reading Wild Ride as an adult alongside it, because even if you don't want to share every one of these details with your kids, I think it'll make that process just so much more meaningful.

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, I appreciate you saying that. Yes, I tried to, in a way, tie the books together and the Wild Ride also has a Young reader's version, which is for ages eight through 13. It's for a little bit older crowd than the children's book if they want it, or if a kid reads the children's book and the parent wants to read the young reader's version of Wild Ride to their kid, to just give the more detail in depth.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I didn't know that you made another age version of that book. That is so meaningful because as I was reading it, I was like, "This is a great book that I think could be really wonderful for that age bracket, the young people that are maybe about to enter their young teen years and grappling with these hard things in life."

Hayley Arceneaux: It's such a powerful age, that eight to 13 age group where they're so much of themselves, and they're still figuring some things out, and sometimes at that point you're struggling with your image and things like that. At least I was around that age, and so Wild Ride, the young reader's version, hopefully helps empower them. And then the one thing I really wanted them to take away from that book was hope, and just that, as we all go through difficult times in life, that it will get better and it can be even better than your biggest dreams. I never could have imagined I would be an astronaut when I was going through cancer treatment, and you never know what's around the corner in life and I think there's beauty in that.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: One of the details that I did catch in your book was an interesting change you made between your real life experiences, getting that call telling you that you were going to be going to space, which was a out of nowhere, get on a web conference, now you're finding out suddenly you're going to go to space when you didn't expect it. But in Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure, you change that and you change the detail. It's now your brother who is telling you that you get to go to space. Why was that a meaningful change for you to make?

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, my brother, he has been by my side through this whole journey. And the actual real-life Hayden is an aerospace engineer and his wife is also an aerospace engineer. And so we've always been close, but definitely as I was training, I would call him all the time and say, "What exactly does this mean?" Or, "Why do they want me to learn this?" He was the second person I called after I found out I was going to space, after my mom, and he helped encourage me, and so he's really, truly there through it all. He was helping whenever I was going through cancer treatment, and I was so sick and vomiting. He was right there by my side, and so because he's always been there and he's so important to me, I wanted him to have that moment where he got to tell me that somebody wanted me to go to space.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I love what this book or what both of them, really, say about heroism, right? Because astronaut Haley in this kids' book is the hero, but you're also trying to point out that the kids and the readers are the hero as well, if they can seize that bravery. And in Wild Ride, you're clearly the hero, but so is your mom, so is your dad. And your brother, and all of the doctors and everyone that you worked with. It was a really touching tale of how we all work together to accomplish these great things, even when one person is the person that's bearing so much of the weight of it. And I wanted to ask you how that context for heroism changed whether or not you felt like you were ready to go to space?

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, I will say that I think something that's gotten me through really tough times, throughout the years, has been focusing on other people and gratitude practice without, even when I was younger, without calling it gratitude practice, but just focusing on how I've been helped by other people and how they've given me a hand through the darkest of days. And so I've always looked at the people around me and seen them as the heroes, and all of a sudden, I was hearing from so many different people and they were telling me that I inspired them. It was interesting for me to get used to, to see myself in that light and in the spotlight like that. Even through that time, I was just focusing on how grateful I was for the engineers, and for my trainers, and for my crew members who were able to help give me such an incredible experience.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Right. None of us can do it alone. And you talk a lot in Wild Ride about this idea of happiness and hopefulness being a choice, that when you go through really difficult things sometimes it can make you bitter if you allow it. And both of these books talk about the hard parts, but also the fact that the aftermath of difficult situations can be very difficult, not just in how people treat you or deal with the hard things you've been through, but also in the ways that hardship can limit your ideas of your own future, right?

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: But what you seem to be saying, what you're actively trying to combat is this idea that it limits you, but instead you're saying, "Hard things can free you." Can you talk a little bit about that?

Hayley Arceneaux: You learn so much about yourself when you go through something difficult, and for me, my situation was childhood cancer, but everyone has something, something that they've been through that can hurt to the core and just shake your vision of the future, but you learn what your strengths are because as you get through it, you learn how you got through that and it can give you this feeling that you can truly do anything. And for me, having such a difficult illness as a kid, there were some days where I didn't know if I would have many more days, but it gave me this love and zest for life that just really made me want to get the most out of every day I am on Earth, and truly embrace the opportunities that come my way. And I credit cancer with this gift that it gave me, for loving life.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: There's an interesting juxtaposition here in that you're saying, "I went through this hard thing and it gave me this zest, this longing to do something with life." But then you have this opportunity, someone comes to you and says, "Hey, do you want to go to space?" And at the time, you weren't super familiar with the dangers of space travel-

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:18:35].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: ... or what the current status of space exploration was like. And in conversations with your brother, you brought up there might be a 50/50 chance that I might die, but you were still set on going. Why was that so important to you, to go to space and do this even knowing that it might be super dangerous and knowing that life itself, and this experience of life, is what you cherish most?

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes. I love that example that you brought up. Whenever I found out I was going to space and I called my aerospace engineer brother, I said, "What's the risk of death, 50%?" And he's like, "No, nowhere anywhere near that." And I was like, "Okay, well, great because I was going to go anyway." And I remember, afterward, some people that I feel like maybe didn't understand, they said, "Oh, she survived cancer. How can she risk her life like this?" But it's because I love my life so much that I want to enjoy it and just, this was the most unique opportunity I had ever been approached with, but I think it feels like living to take these opportunities, even opportunities that scare you and to say, "Yes," to them, to have that courage and that confidence to say, "Yes," knowing that it can open the door to so many experiences that you never thought possible. But truly, it's because I love life that I wanted to have the opportunity to go off the planet and learn so much about myself along the way.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I think it says something really cool about this moment in space history, that you as someone who didn't necessarily want to be an astronaut as a kid and had all of these things in your life that previously would've been barriers to entry, right?

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: You were not only a young woman, but you experienced childhood illness, you have a prosthetic in your leg. All these things together previously would've left you out, but now we're in this phase where space is accessible to people like you, and I found myself just being so grateful that someone who isn't solely focused on space could actually have that experience.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, I feel the exact same way. And this mission that we were on, we were the first all-civilian orbital space mission. Before this mission, really the people that had flown were physically perfect and I would never have qualified to be an NASA astronaut. So it was never one of my dreams and truly it wouldn't have been in the cards for me. But then this mission came along and we were able to change what it looks like to be an astronaut, and to bring to the table a diverse set of skills because we had all had different health backgrounds and career backgrounds. 

I do remember the first time, for example, I did centrifuge training and I was going to experience significant g-force for the first time. I asked some people there, I was like, "Have you ever known anyone with a prosthetic body part that's been through this?" And the answer was, "No." I asked my orthopedic surgeon if my prosthesis and my leg would be able to handle the g-forces, and he said, "I don't know." And I remember just feeling so much fear in that moment, but then also shifting the perspective to thinking, "Well, this is beautiful that I get to be the first. Yes, I'm afraid because I don't know what to expect, but because I'm going to be the first and this can open the door for other people who are like me." And so there was some fear in the beginning of all that, but then there was also just so much gratitude to be able to be that first person to open the door and hold it open for all those to come behind me.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I loved that part about the centrifuge, but I'm also thinking about the day in the simulator where the whole crew was in there, trying to test how long you could sit in those chairs, and you were trying to be really brave about the fact that this chair was causing you all sorts of uncomfortableness stuck in it for so long. And it took you quite a while because you didn't want to say something that could potentially remove you from going on this mission. But you come around in the end, being like, "Always let people know when you're struggling or when you're in pain." Because you said that, they could change the chair and that means that everybody else who comes after, who has a prosthetic limb, is going to have an easier time of it. So it really is worth being vulnerable in those moments.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yeah, I learned a lot about vulnerability throughout the mission. As I was just learning more about myself, and as I was training with my crew and with SpaceX, and especially in the beginning of training, I wanted to come across as the toughest girl, the toughest astronaut they had ever met. And whenever I was in that original seat, and we were doing that launch simulation, and I started feeling the pain, and it got worse and worse, to the point I was sweating and gritting my teeth. I didn't want to say anything because I was worried about how that would come across, but whenever I did speak up, it taught me a lot about how you need to be vulnerable in certain moments, not only with my crew in order to be my fully present self, and with my trainers, so that I could be honest and transparent with them, but also with myself to learn about those moments where even if I felt weak on the inside. 

Later, I saw that as such a strength that I was able to speak up in that moment and hopefully make some good change that they can use for future flyers who have pain with that seat.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It's a hard thing to speak up, especially when you're on camera being filmed for a Netflix documentary.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Just [inaudible 00:24:05]-

Hayley Arceneaux: That definitely added to it.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: [inaudible 00:24:07] but especially in the section where you're talking about climbing Mount Rainier, you guys did some really intense training to try to prepare for space, but here you are trying to make your way up a mountain on this prosthetic leg, while people are literally filming you the whole time. That's got to be really nerve wracking.

Hayley Arceneaux: I could feel the camera because they had it trained on us the whole time. It was nine and a half hours of a climb up the mountain, and I'd never done anything like that. I had done some hikes over the years, but I didn't think climbing a mountain would even be possible for me. And then I found out it was mandatory and so I made it possible, but yes, I wanted, and that's again, that was earlier in training where I just wanted to come across like the toughest girl. That one really taught me a lot about just staying in the moment because it was a one foot, one step after another situation. The true test of that was not to make it up the mountain, it was to bond as a crew, and we happened to get to the goal location that we had and camped for a few days on the mountain, but that was such a good way of really learning about each other, and that was one of our first big crew bonding activities.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I'm so glad that you ended up loving the crew. I've never gotten to meet any of the other people in person, but I've been in the same room with Sian Proctor and-

Hayley Arceneaux: Ah.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: ... just being in that space, you could feel what a kind and jovial person she was [inaudible 00:25:29]-

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That must've been so much fun.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, because we went through something so big together and we spent a lot of time training, and the training was intense, and then we had this life-changing experience. The first time we all saw the Earth from cupola, I'll never forget that. And Sian's my sister, and Jared and Chris, we all keep up. We've got our group texts. It's a strong and I know that we're going to be in each other's lives forever. You can't go through something like this and not have it, especially as we had this life-changing experience. So much of that life-changing experience I think about being with them and what they taught me.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Well, we're in a really interesting situation right now where we're all wondering what's going to happen as this new administration comes in, and changes funding and priorities for NASA. And one of the things that we're still waiting on is the confirmation of the new NASA administrator, who right now the presumptive nominee is Jared Isaacman. My only context for Jared came from the Netflix documentary and watching him on the Polaris Dawn mission, sticking his head out the hole and looking out at the Earth. But all of these are curated commercial experiences of him. You know him personally, and I know you can't speculate about what he would be like as a NASA administrator, but what do you think he loves so much about space exploration and what do you think his priorities might be as he potentially takes this role?

Hayley Arceneaux: I think he's going to be fantastic. I've seen him put to the test, and I've seen him challenged, and he is very fair, and he is thoughtful. He's able to see both sides of a situation and make the best decision for all parties involved, and I think he's going to do a wonderful job. I know we are waiting for his confirmation hearing, but I think he's going to do such a great job. And I love hearing about his passion for space exploration and just for journeying into the unknown, because that is how we progress as a society, is learning more about what's around us, and he not only sees that, but he lives it. He has so much experience and he's really pushed things. If anyone ever gets a chance to hear him speak about exploration, it's very inspiring and it definitely leaves you wanting to learn more about what's around us.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: You did do some really profound tests while you guys were all out in space, despite being an all civilian crew. What were some of the medical tests that you got to do while you were up there, since you got to be the medical officer on board?

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, so really, such a large portion of our time in space was spent doing research, and that went back to, they approached us with this at the beginning of our Inspiration4, journey and we all as a crew said that yes, we wanted to contribute to science as much as possible and help answer questions. We didn't want this to necessarily be perceived as a joyride. We wanted to help contribute to science, and so a lot of the questions were biomedical in nature, and so we did things like we ultrasounded our eyeballs, our bladders, our large blood vessels, to evaluate for the size and the shape in microgravity. We were swabbing different parts of our bodies throughout the mission to see the microbiome, how the microbes on our skin changed in those three days in the small spacecraft, sharing it with three other people. We took cognition tests as astronauts had previously reported a space fog, and so they wanted to see how a short duration space mission would compare with a longer duration space mission, some of the data they already had. And we gave a bunch of samples. 

We gave saliva samples, urine samples, blood. We took blood every day because they wanted to see what changes occurred. Me and another crew member wore continuous glucose monitors to evaluate for the reliability in flight. It's been really interesting as the data is now coming out. We actually just were published in Nature, which people who are into the science journal realm, they know that Nature is such a prestigious publication, but it's really exciting to see there are some differences between, for example, our three-day mission and longer duration space missions, and then there are similarities as well.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's really cool. I'm going to have to look up that Nature paper and link it on this page too because I love getting into that. And especially as we're thinking about sending people into space for longer term journeys. And sending women, and people who haven't been represented in space before, we need to be able to do these medical studies to see how long-term space travel can impact people because our data's pretty limited right now.

Hayley Arceneaux: Data is limited. Yes.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Yeah.

Hayley Arceneaux: And one thing about us being a civilian crew is I feel like we were very transparent with the symptoms that we were having as well, because we're not worried about not being qualified to fly again. And so I think a lot of us were very honest with our medical team as well about the true symptoms we were experiencing and not afraid to ask for medications, because we didn't feel perfect in space. Our bodies had been in gravity our entire lives. All of a sudden that gravity element is removed and that comes with symptoms. And so I've enjoyed being able to share with people the human side of being in space.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Yeah, it was really interesting to read about the back pain caused by your spinal cord elongating because you weren't in gravity, but also the flip side of that was that being in space allowed you the freedom to not be putting that pressure on your leg all the time, which meant that you weren't getting that same inflammation. And it occurs to me that, this might be way out in the future, but we could someday think of space as a form of medical treatment for people who are in recurring pain because of situations in gravity.

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, that's an interesting thought. I like that. Yes, my leg felt great in space without... There was no pressure on it. And because SpaceX was able to design my seat on the flight, I was not in pain on launch day. But I really like that forward-thinking approach.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: We'll be right back with the rest of my interview with Hayley Arceneaux after the short break.

Jack Kiraly: I'm Jack Kiraly, director of government relations for The Planetary Society. I'm thrilled to announce that registration is now open for The Planetary Society's flagship advocacy event, the Day of Action. Each year, we empower Planetary Society members from across the United States to directly champion planetary exploration, planetary defense, and the search for life beyond Earth. Attendees meet face-to-face with legislators and their staff in Washington D.C. to make the case for space exploration and show them why it matters. Research shows that in-person constituent meetings are the most effective way to influence our elected officials, and we need your voice. If you believe in our mission to explore the cosmos, this is your chance to take action. You'll receive comprehensive advocacy training from our expert space policy team, both online and in-person. We'll handle the logistics of scheduling your meetings with your representatives, and you'll also gain access to exclusive events and social gatherings with fellow space advocates. This year's Day of Action takes place on Monday, March 24th, 2025. Don't miss your opportunity to help shape the future of space exploration. Register now at planetary.org/dayofaction.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: In Wild Ride, you talk about your encounter with the overview effect, but you don't really talk about it in Astronaut Haley's Brave Adventure because that's not the point of the book. But if you were to say anything to kids about that overview effect and seeing the Earth from space, what would you say?

Hayley Arceneaux: I think one of my biggest takeaways that I would share with little ones is when you look at the planet, you know that you'll never be alone. There's a lot of people with you and we're all in this together.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I think you've got a really great context for that because this zest for life that you have, because of your experiences, has led you to travel all around the world, and to focus specifically on going to places that can help you learn Spanish so that you can then use that life skill to make medicine and your treatment more accessible to other people. And I was thinking about that as I was rereading Astronaut Haley. There's this beautiful context of what that ability to communicate and to see the world as one large thing can do for you. But you do note in Wild Ride that as you were going around, you did find that there are huge disparities between nations when it comes to medical care, and being able to learn Spanish helped you bridge that gap in some respect. Are there any lessons you think you can take from that experience that might be helpful when it comes to space? It's not a life or death scenario necessarily, but those disparities still exist between nations.

Hayley Arceneaux: They do. So as the medical officer, I was in charge of the health of my crew in space. And especially, I was going through medical officer training, I learned medicine is very limited in space. Not only are their options for medication limited, but diagnostic equipment is very limited. For our mission, we just had a portable ultrasound on the iPhone. And missions like ours, by space travel, it helps come up with a equipment that could eventually serve regions where diagnostic resources are limited. 

One thing that we were trying to do on our mission was help qualify a diagnostic device that was very small and it would help identify inflammation. And the beauty of resources like this is that if similar diagnostic resources are found to be functional and accurate, it can help not only in the limited abilities of space, but also places on Earth where diagnostic resources are limited. And so by space travel, it really helps solve problems here on Earth and can help in low and middle income countries if there are true developments made that can help the medical environment of space, which is extremely limited, can also help some limited environments on Earth.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I get this question all the time, why should we be investing in space exploration when there's so much that needs to be done here on Earth? But time and time again, as we're exploring and investing in space, we find situations like this, right-

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: ... where you can take a lesson and take it back to Earth. And just two years ago, I was interviewing someone who is working on a mobile astropharmacy that could then completely change life on Earth.

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:36:36].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It was such a cool concept. So I will never stop screaming from the mountaintops about all the beautiful applications of these technologies here on Earth.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yeah, my crew member Sian always says, "Solving for space solves for Earth." And I love that.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's a beautiful way to put it, yeah. So you got to go on this beautiful grand adventure, but for a while there, you weren't sure you were going to be able to go to space, let alone get your dream job at St. Jude.

Hayley Arceneaux: [inaudible 00:37:00].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: You did so much work to get there, but you were still rejected from St. Jude several times before you finally succeeded. And I super relate to this as someone who went into astrophysics. Everybody who wants to study space, they have these beautiful dreams, but as I learned in the hard way, getting out of college, you're going to face a lot of rejection before you find that dream job. And I ultimately found my place at The Planetary Society, but what would you say to people who want to pursue these space careers or jobs like yours that are really medically intensive, that might face rejection along the way?

Hayley Arceneaux: One thing I've learned about rejection is it doesn't always mean no, it could mean not right now. And I really believe that things work out how they're supposed to work out. And I had applied for several jobs at St. Jude over the years, that I thought I was going to be a shoo-in. I had had this dream job of working at the hospital that saved my life. Since I was 10 years old, all I've ever wanted to do is work at St. Jude, and I really thought whenever I applied that they would just open the door for me and say, "We've been waiting for you." And then when I got told, "No," not one, but three times as I was lacking experience or just not the right fit, it was discouraging for sure. And that's why I wanted to be open about this in my book because I think a lot of people can relate to it. 

A lot of times these dream jobs, they're dreams for a reason, that you really have to work for them. And by showing up over and over, people are going to see your passion. And so that's what I continue to doing, I just continue to show up and I ended up at the best fit. Out of all the times I applied, the job I ended up getting was absolutely perfect for me, and it came after I had gained a lot of experience that ultimately I needed. And so I really do believe things work out as they're supposed to, but that is, it's so normal to have these ups and downs in your career. It's not linear. As you continue to show up, work hard and show your passion, people see that. They feel it.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And it's an important lesson to share. But you do also say in Wild Ride that if you could go back and tell your 10-year-old self what the future would hold you, you wouldn't. Why is that?

Hayley Arceneaux: I think the beauty of life is that you don't know what's going to happen. And I think that's why, on your really tough days, you have to hold on to hope that there's going to be better days ahead. You just don't know them yet, and that they could be better than you can even imagine. I never could have imagined I would ever go to space, and I have loved that part of life, of just being surprised. And that's not the only time I've been surprised by something incredible, but on those really tough days, on my really dark days where I felt like I was losing hope, it's like I had hope in the unknown. And so I love the journey that I've been through in life, and I'm glad that I've had the surprises that I've had. And I wouldn't want to ruin the surprise for young me. I think so much of the beauty of the journey has been rolling with the punches, seeing what's come my way and embracing the opportunities.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It's reminding me of the chapter, I think it was called Losing Hope, Choosing Hope, where you're talking about going to Camp Horizon, which is a summer camp for kids that have either encountered pediatric cancer or have survived it. And there's a camp song where you sing about beyond the horizon, there's hope for everyone. And I noted this because at The Planetary Society, we actually worked with Melodysheep to make a song called Beyond the Horizon that was a remix of things that our CEO, Bill Nye, had said, and other people. But suddenly there was this really interesting parallel that crystallized for me, which is that kids with cancer are people who are dealing with really hard times. They have to think, "Well, somewhere beyond that horizon, there's something beautiful coming for me." But it's the same motivation that drives people to want to do space exploration.

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: It's not driven by a same sadness necessarily, but there is a kind of understanding of the fragility of life on Earth and the fact that we don't know what's beyond, and that's what drives us to explore. And I found that parallel really illuminating for me, and really beautiful.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, and those who do aerospace work on Earth, it's very hopeful of, as you're working towards advancing what we know and you're working towards things that we haven't even discovered yet. It's very exciting work. I have really enjoyed my experience in getting to see this space side of things and just learn so much from this space industry. I love the drive, I love the passion in everyone I've met who works in the space industry.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Well, you have a large family between St. Jude and SpaceX now, but I was thinking about this image of you that they took in space, of you floating there with your hair floating all around you, and you're holding this picture of you as a kid. You don't have any hair. You're in the midst of dealing with cancer, but you're still smiling. And I re-encountered this thought and this image recently because I was interviewing Emily Calandrelli, who just recently-

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, yeah.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Yeah, she became the 100th woman in space. And as I was researching her, I was going through her website and I found this gallery called Space Sisters, and you're in there in a very similar fashion, you in your flight suit holding the same image, but you're surrounded by other women who have recently gone to space. And I wanted to ask you what it's been like, not just becoming a part of the space community, but finding that community within the group of women that have recently gone to space.

Hayley Arceneaux: What I love about our group is it is such an empowering group, such an uplifting group, and we celebrate each other's accomplishments and successes as if there are our own, and there's power in that. There's been so many unexpected parts of my space mission that have been wonderful surprises, and one of them is finding this sisterhood, especially with Sian. I think we initially started calling each other space sisters and then it grew into this group of uplifting women who have similar interests, have had these extreme opportunities and life experiences, and there's so much connection in that. And one thing that we all feel really passionately about is wanting to share our experience, and so we try to use it to uplift other people, especially young women and little girls, and to hopefully inspire them to dream big and hopefully see themselves in us.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I hope to meet and speak with each and every one of these women because as I was looking at that image, I did, I went down the rabbit hole. I searched everyone's life-

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: ... and I came away from it just tears streaming down my face at my computer, like this is so beautiful.

Hayley Arceneaux: Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, it's such a great group of girls and everyone's just, we're really happy to be where we are and to have found this connection through it.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And it occurred to me too, that your journey to space was not that long ago, but at the time there was maybe around 70 women that had been to space. Now we mark, just at the end of last year, a hundred women that have gone to space, and that's not that many years since you went up.

Hayley Arceneaux: It's so true.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: The number is accelerating, and a lot of that is due, in part, to the advancement of commercial space. And I know that people have all kinds of feelings about commercial space, but what has it taught you about the power of this opportunity to allow for more of these opportunities or accelerate our ability to include more people in this journey?

Hayley Arceneaux: A really powerful aspect of commercial spaceflight is how it's allowing more and more research to take place. And so for the Inspiration4 mission, for Polaris Dawn, we have taken the role of participating in research very seriously. And I know there's been research on some of the suborbital missions, [inaudible 00:44:54] Kellie Gerardi, she and her all-female research team, and we're so happy to be where we are, that we want to help contribute. And I think that there's going to be... I think a lot of the information that we have and a lot of the data we have about the human body in space, a lot of this is going to come from the commercial side of things. And I find that very exciting. 

Also, it's going to do so much good for our planet, for people to go up into space and experience the overview effect, to see our planet and to have that life-changing moment where your perspective changes for good. And I am hopeful, as more and more people see that, that there will be more peace on Earth, more unity and more support for each other, not just people from the nation where we came, but for all people around the world.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And we can't take every one of your patients to space, but you did get an opportunity, while you were up there, to livestream some of your experience and answer questions from the kids at St. Jude.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: How many people joined that call?

Hayley Arceneaux: There might've been around 10 on the call, actually actively asking us questions, but there were over a thousand people watching it live, and then since then, many kids have been able to watch it on YouTube. But that was truly the highlight of the mission for me. It was what I had been looking forward to the most before I went to space, and whenever I got to hear the little voices of my patients from space, it just filled us with such enthusiasm and it just reaffirmed, for all of us, why we were doing this mission. 

We were raising money for St. Jude throughout training, throughout our time in space and even after coming home, and that was so important to all of us. I loved how my crew took on fundraising for St. Jude, wholeheartedly, even though Chris and Sian, and I think Jared at the time, hadn't even been to the hospital yet, but they had so much love for it and they could hear about the hospital through my stories. And that was just so important to all of us, trying to advance life on Earth by helping raise money for cancer research. And then of course, it was just so cute hearing the questions from the kids about what they wanted to know about our space experience. My favorite question was, "Are there cows on the moon?" It was kids being kids and I loved that. It felt just very genuine and happy.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: You say in Wild Ride that when you're actually doing your medical work, you don't always tell your patients that you're a cancer survivor. You do if it's helpful, in contexts where you feel like it will bolster them, but now you've added onto that story, "I went to space." Has that changed the way you share your story with your patients?

Hayley Arceneaux: I think it's helped me connect to a wider range of patients, and especially those little kiddos who'll, you see a little stuffy of an astronaut or you see a rocket in the corner of their hospital room. And then it's such a great segue into saying, "Oh, I rode a rocket." And there's some kids that if I tell them I had cancer, especially the little bitties, maybe they don't understand quite the gravity of that connection, but if I tell them, "I'm an astronaut," then that's something that is more maybe familiar to them. And it's been a really, not only great way of connecting with the patients, but a great way of being able to tell them that life after cancer can be full of accomplished dreams, and that no matter what big dreams you have, either on Earth or in space, that those dreams can come true. And having cancer doesn't have to limit you.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's so beautiful. And I love that there's so much more to you than just this story. You were saying, during the time when you entered high school, essentially, you hated that everyone thought of you as the cancer girl, right?

Hayley Arceneaux: Absolutely.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: But I think you've really, you've made it a part of your identity in a way that's, it's not just I had cancer, it's, I've overcome something really hard and now I'm going to do everything I can to try to help other people overcome that as well. And that's a really powerful way to recontextualize that.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, and to take back the power that I had cancer, and it really put my life on hold, and I had to go through treatment. And really, there was so much suffering during that time, but it's helped me to not feel bitter about it, to think about the other people that I could impact because of my experience. And so ever since I was 10 years old, I was raising money for cancer research and trying to help other kids, trying to encourage them. And that's ultimately what led me to the field that I'm in now, and it's definitely not lost on me how grateful I am to be where I am. And I'm grateful to have had cancer, and I've had this incredible life journey where so much beauty can come out of so much pain.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And I love that after you got to come down from space, you splashed down, you get to see your family, and then you get to celebrate with all of the people that have been on this journey with you. And seeing so many people along the way, the doctors that helped you with your physical therapy, and the kids that you've treated, and everyone, get to celebrate the fact that you went to space together. It is so much, not just your triumph, but all of their triumph, and it was a beautiful part of the book for me.

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, thank you. I love the way that you see that and that takeaway. There was so much celebration, especially with my medical team and with friends I had, whenever we went through cancer treatment together and just so many people that supported me through the years. It felt like a celebration for all of us, and whenever I got back from space and gotten back to Memphis, and St. Jude had a parade, and there were kids going through cancer treatment, holding signs, and there was my team that helped save my life, and everyone that came together, and it just felt like just this incredible moment where we did this together.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: And now you've got this beautiful kids' book that's just come out. Are you looking forward to sharing it with some of your patients?

Hayley Arceneaux: I am. I am going to be bringing several copies to St. Jude, and doing readings with the kids, and just telling them the simple message that if I can do this, you can do this. And I hope that it inspires some big dreams and some big adventures.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Well, thanks for doing all of this, not just coming on the show and writing these books, but for being brave enough to turn something that could have absolutely crushed your spirit into the fire that carries you onward. It's absolutely inspirational, and I've seen so many people go through this kind of arc in the space industry. Everyone's got their own story for why they're so fired up about it. Everyone's dealing with their own personal struggles, but in the end, especially if we can bolster each other, we can go to space, we can do anything together. And I think you represent that very well.

Hayley Arceneaux: Well, I appreciate you saying that so much, and thank you for what you do, because as you said, everyone has a story, everyone has their why, and thank you for spotlighting our stories.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Well, thanks, Haley, and here's to the next brave adventure.

Hayley Arceneaux: Yes, thanks so much.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: There are so many beautiful details to this story that we didn't get to explore in this conversation, but you're just going to have to read her books to learn more. I know I personally connect with the story, but no matter who you are, it's an inspiring tale of resilience, love and hope. Each of us has our struggles that have shaped our lives. You never know when someone's going through something, so it's a good reminder to be kind to one another. After all, as far as we know, we're some of the only intelligent creatures in the entire universe. 

I also want to send a huge thank you to everyone who works so hard to fight childhood illness and support all of those who are going through difficult medical times. People like Haley saved the person I love. They saved Haley, and they're working each day to create the treatments that we need to conquer illness here on Earth and in space. And no matter what you're going through right now, I hope that there are brighter days ahead, and that when you come out the other side of whatever it is that you appreciate your bravery and that it sets you free, whether that means you're going to space or just living life. 

Now, let's check in with Dr. Bruce Betts, our chief scientist for What's Up. Hey Bruce.

Bruce Betts: Hey, Sarah. Hi there, ho there, he there, [inaudible 00:53:36].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Man, I was looking forward to that conversation with Hayley Arceneaux for so long. One of the things I think that really hit me as I was reading her books about this was the moment that she tried to go through astronaut training, and Haley has a prosthetic leg. There's a prosthetic in her leg, and no one who's ever had something like that has ever gone through something like g-force training, and it sounded a really intense experience in the book. But I know you tried to become an astronaut at some point, so can you describe what these centrifuge trainings are like and how many g-forces you might be pulling during them?

Bruce Betts: I can give it a shot at it, I can give the NASA side of it. Basically, the basic launch typically is in the 3g range, and people tend to pass out around five or 6g's, and if they're trained to do the weird, pretend like you're constipated maneuver, you can crank that up to six, 7g's, but you don't want to do it for very long. And then of course they have negative g's, if you want to think of it that way, where they are actually going the opposite direction and being pushed into their straps, although those tend to be lower. I went through the full medical range of tests, but they didn't do that. They were too busy poking, prodding in my brain.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Oh, man. Not literally probing your brain, right?

Bruce Betts: Not in a inside-the-skull kind of way, but they did. electroencephalograms, I believe is the right term. EEGs.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Yeah, what was shocking for me reading about how SpaceX prepares their space travelers was all the tests they did on hypoxia. They would put them inside a chamber and dial up the oxygen or the nitrogen, just dial it all around to see how their brains reacted and make them do cognitive tests while they were doing it. That just-

Bruce Betts: [inaudible 00:55:29] I've done that. It was encouraged, but not required as a separate test. I've done the hypoxia. So basically designed for people who fly above altitude where you can have enough oxygen, so that if you don't notice your oxygen going out, you've experienced what it feels like, and how you start to become stupid, and what other symptoms you feel. And what I was doing, they didn't push us to passing out, but they did do the cognitive tests to make people aware that you need to be very wary of something wrong with your oxygen system. Weird, our bodies really like it.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Really though, need that to survive. Oh, man, going to space is just such a thing, and trying to go through all that training with a prosthetic limb, not knowing how it was going to affect all of that.

Bruce Betts: [inaudible 00:56:22].

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's scary. If that had broken her leg, she wouldn't have been able to go to space and she would've had to get it replaced again. That's a whole level of bravery that I don't know if I'm prepared for, and I... I'm blown away by this lady.

Bruce Betts: I know that's wonderful. From her challenging life perspective, she's developed such a positive attitude and is sharing it with the kids out there.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Right. I'm always just belligerently hopeful, so it's nice to find other people that are just as obnoxiously hopeful as I am.

Bruce Betts: Belligerently obnoxiously hopeful.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Yep.

Bruce Betts: That's you.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: That's me. Well, what do you got for us this week, Bruce? Is it belligerently hopeful or what do we got?

Bruce Betts: Oh, my gosh. You wouldn't believe how belligerently hopeful it is. It is the random space fact. This may be one of the greatest or one of the lamest space facts ever, depending on your perspective. So sorry, to those who go lame. You ready, Sarah?

Sarah Al-Ahmed: I'm ready.

Bruce Betts: Hey, what's this word?

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Star.

Bruce Betts: And what is it backwards?

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Oh, no, Bruce. Rats.

Bruce Betts: Yes. Random space fact. There you go. In the meantime, everyone go out there, look up the night sky and think about what's up there. Is it-

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Star?

Bruce Betts: Or is it-

Sarah Al-Ahmed: Rats?

Bruce Betts: Thank you and good night.

Sarah Al-Ahmed: We've reached the end of this week's episode of Planetary Radio, but we'll be back next week with another tale of perseverance through tragedy, as we look back at NASA's Genesis mission, the solar wind sample-return spacecraft that crashed and still managed to achieve its mission. You think the OSIRIS-REx sample return was a wild ride, just wait until you hear this one. If you love the show, you can get Planetary Radio T-shirts at planetary.org/shop, along with lots of other cool spacey merchandise. Help others discover the passion, beauty, joy, and hope of space science and exploration by leaving your review or a rating on platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback not only brightens our day, but helps other curious minds find their place in space through Planetary Radio. 

You can also send us your space thoughts, questions, and poetry at our email at [email protected]. Or if you're a Planetary Society member, leave a comment in the Planetary Radio space in our member community app. Planetary Radio is produced by The Planetary Society in Pasadena, California, and is made possible by our members that never give up hope for a brighter future for everyone on Earth and in space. You can join us and help us shape the future of space exploration, one beautiful step at a time, at planetary.org/join. Mark Hilverda and Rae Paoletta are our associate producers. Andrew Lucas is our audio editor. Josh Doyle composed our theme, which is arranged and performed by Pieter Schlosser, and until next week, ad astra.